water falling down 100 metres
Today was D-Day in 1944. Remember the courage and sacrifice of those involved in that pivotal event.
* * * * * *
When will it stop being called a “peaceful religion?” Seriously. Between the foiled plots in Canada and the violence and repression overseas (even in “stable” Islamic countries), when are we going to realize that this is the mainstream? This is the norm for those who adhere to that belief system. Those among them who speak of Islam as a “peaceful religion” are the quasi-apostate fringe, and could be likened to the liberal (I use this in the theological sense) enclave of Christianity, who adopt so much of the prevailing humanist worldview as to be well-nigh unrecognizably Christian. Mainstream Islam is anything but a peaceful religion, if blatantly obvious, sadly everyday world events are any indication.
One more thing: Iran should just drop the pretense of their nuclear program being for solely peaceful purposes. How high on the priority list should peaceful nuclear energy be when the country needs development in other, more basic areas? It smacks a bit of North Korea’s line when developing their own program: Famine was rampant, most of the population was (and is) barely scraping by and the government redirects resources toward nuclear energy? Iran is much more developed than North Korea is, but still… I’m sure they can find more worthy causes to which to direct their constituents’ resources than an ostensibly peaceful nuclear program. I don’t buy it, and I don’t think most politicians and diplomats do either, thankfully.
* * * * * *
Fantastic weekend. Diane and Luke (and her sister Maralyn and her boyfriend Josh) came to the airport with me on Saturday afternoon! The wind was moderate out of the north (more or less straight down the runway, which is good), so I decided to take the airplane up for a bit to assess the stability of the air. After a couple of bumpy laps around in the traffic pattern and a pair of landings during which I had to really finesse the airplane back onto the ground, I decided that conditions weren’t quite ideal for a first flight for Diane and parked the plane. She appreciated it and was overjoyed to see me fly. I think Luke liked it too. At least he recognizes airplanes now–he and I were outside in my front yard last night while Diane cooked a wonderful chicken caesar salad dinner for us, and he pointed to a little prop plane as it flew overhead on its way to the Winston-Salem airport. That made me happy.
The Longest Day
Really good article by Melanie Phillips, featured on Laura Ingraham today.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2212130,00.html (sorry, still learning about links)
As I listened to these two women discuss the problem with the West’s guilt and ballooning relativism, I kept thinking how tragic it is that even well-intentioned politicians and pundits will be swept up sooner or later without Christ’s perspective. When one looks at how God has SPOKEN in all things throughout history, wow. Its difficult not the think the rubberband of his tolerance (TRUE tolerance) will not soon snap.
And another thing, Tony Blair said some good things about the states…about freedom…about “progress”, but I can’t help but see eventually how any “fundamental” beliefs will be suspect in the name of said progress…this religion (Islam) will be used to persecute the church in more ways than we think. I do believe that after the next big attack, whatever that looks like (thinking Nukes, but who knows) the reaction will be so fierce (self preservation is strong)that all religious expression will be in question. I know some things have to be removed before this happens but I see it happening within my lifetime and it makes me very sad.
I continue to hear this tumbling through my head, “Train up a child in the way they should go and they will not depart from it.” You know what that means to me, right?
Two things:
1. Christianity is not necessarily a peaceful religion. Just because Christianity is not propagating anything like Jihaad doesn’t necessarily mean that Christianity is all peaceful. I’m no Islam sympathizer but provocation for years goes a long way towards turning any “peaceful religion” the otherway round. And I know right now they are strung high so even little provocation is blown out of proportion but the majority of the Islamic world is peaceful and would remain so as long as they don’t become American Colonies !
2. Iran should just drop the pretense of their nuclear program being for solely peaceful purposes.
Does that mean only the United States gets to have nuclear warheads?
Like Carlos Mencia said on his show last night, you can’t teach your kids to not do drugs if you have a tatoo of a Pot Plant on your neck!
1. Absolutely. The trappings of any belief system can be appropriated and distorted and used to fuel violence. But when the violence seemingly stands at the core of the religion (mainstream Islam) and isn’t based on a distortion of misunderstanding of the belief system’s core assumptions (the Crusades, etc), matters get distressing. I don’t think America ever had any ambition to make the Islamic world into “American colonies.” Such a volatile religion will seize at anything to become a catalyst for its violent methods of maintaining social stability, and hatred of American influence is such a catalyst.
2. I wish we would get rid of the ones we have. It’s not a fourth grade birthday party where, “Just because he has one I should have one too and it’s not faaaaaiiiirrr…” There are more countries than just the U.S. in on this. And as much as I am usually in alignment with the brilliant opinions of Carlos Mencia (note: heavy sarcasm), in this instance I must adamantly disagree. Does the fact that we have made certain mistakes in the past disqualify us from dissuading our children from making those same mistakes?
Yes.
The mainstream muslim “looks” peaceful probably because they aren’t adhering to much of their “holy” scriptures. The mainstream or “lukewarm” christian looks more like everyone else, not to mention often hypocritical, because THEY are not adhering to much of the Bible. It has never been the totality of scripture teaching war and persecution in the name of God and certainly never Jesus the Christ! More often that not, it has truly been a few who twisted the words of Life into serving their purposes. This cannot be said of the Koran or muslims. The closer they read their texts, the more violently fanatical they seem to become.
But when the violence seemingly stands at the core of the religion (mainstream Islam)
I can’t believe that you actually truly belive that. That’s an assumption.I don’t think any religion teaches or propagates violence throuhg it’s scriptures, it’s the people who interpret it. Otherwise, the whole Muslim population all over the world would have become suicide bombers by now. And when I say American Colonies, I meant Iraq and mark my word the next in line is Iran.
There are more countries than just the U.S. in on this.
Yes, practically everyone so then why is Iran being stopped , on what grounds? Why doesn’t the entire world move towards unilateral Nuclear Proliferation ? Those are the grounds on which India didn’t sign the NPT.Unfortunately, Iran isn’t as rich in Software Engineers or Business Process Outsourcing as India is and therfore they are at arisk of invasion if they don’t fall in line.
Does the fact that we have made certain mistakes in the past disqualify us from dissuading our children from making those same mistakes?
No but the tattoo does hurt your credibility. Get rid of it first and the same holds true for Nuclear weapons. Everyone should get rid of them.
Nope, I really believe that. Among other things, having your religion created by a violent man kind of sets a precedent for those who follow him. As Diane mentions below, “The closer they read their texts, the more violently fanatical they seem to become.” This article does a good job of dispelling the notion that this might be an unsupportable assumption.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it’s my understanding that India also has a much more stable and peaceful society than Iran (one less likely to elect a fringe dictator with an itchy trigger finger), which might be one of the reasons why they encountered less international pressure. How you feel about this? Do you believe Iran should be left alone to acquire nuclear weapons?
Frankly speaking Matt, the article does anything but dispel what I believe. It’s obvious that it’s written by a Christian.
India doesn’t necessarily have a more peaceful society infact some states are more volatile than Iran. Hindu fundamentalists rule the roost there.
No, I don’t beleive that Iran should be allwoed to acquire nuclear weapons but that’s United Nations’ job not United States’. Alas, the UN is non-existent.
Have you perhaps heard of Ravi Zacharias? He wrote a wonderful book called,Jesus Among Other Gods.
Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849943272/002-6502006-5832804?v=glance&n=283155
His site: http://www.rzim.org/
On another note, just because someone is a Christian does not automatically dismiss his/her credibility on subjects great and small. Truth is truth regardless, and assumptions can be both ignorant or informed. My .02
I bet Muslims can point to a thousand books and scholars who would stand by their point of view of a peaceful religion the same way you are pointing me towards Ravi’s work.
just because someone is a Christian does not automatically dismiss his/her credibility
No it doesn’t but the chances of his being not biased are also minimal. You point me towards an article written by another person from a different religion and his outtake on how religious beliefs compare and I would be more inclined to take his word.
Re: The Longest Day
I kept thinking how tragic it is that even well-intentioned politicians and pundits will be swept up sooner or later without Christ’s perspective.
um…separation of church and state? hello?
Separation of church and state: Biggest misunderstood concept in modern political circles. The founding fathers of our country certainly didn’t think Christian moral principles were able to be separated from the foundations of government (quite the contrary in fact), and that mindset hasn’t dated.
In all fairness, nowhere in the article is it explicit that the writer is a Christian. Besides, if Islam is indeed rooted in violence (as we certainly have reason to suspect given the undeniable connection between most terrorists and the religion), wouldn’t it behoove us all, regardless of our belief system, to have an open mind about things that may help to illuminate why they do what they do?
Atheism is a religion. Humanism is a religion. Islam, Christianity,Hinduism, Judaism, etc. all religion. Point being, all walks of life, whether based on faith or not, have a particular set of biases. One can be faithless and still operate out of basic assumptions, faulty or informed. It is unavoidable. Everyone works out of a basic framework of understanding. Even ridding society of all “fundamentalism” will not make it some rational utopia…people create gods out of anything.
I recommended Ravi because, apparently, he is from your homeland? I am “assuming”…haha. I find him to be the most gentle, strikingly intelligent and perceptive apologists of our time.
“Jesus…Gods” is his perspective on growing up in India and embracing the Truth in Jesus Christ. Eventually even his parents came to know Him. Very interesting…and timely. I would be interested in hearing about the religous pluralism vs. personal freedom (quality of life, etc.).
Re: The Longest Day
What Matt said. hehe.
Let me apologize. I was speaking in code, “assuming” Matt would understand what I meant because we do operate out of the same fundamental understanding of things. :o) I believe that everyone works from some basic worldview…worldview being a general concept of how life is and works and how that applies to everyday life. (That’s a horrible definition, really. Sorry. Off-the-cuff.)
When looking at the relativistic trends in our once healthy Judeo-Christian culture, these well-intentioned politicians and pundits can use all the right words and maxims and institute new law, etc. but it is all merely good intention without knowledge of truth. It is futility.
But, that might be code again. I’m in over my L.Journal head and this conversation requires a coffee shop and lots of time I do not have with Luke awake in the other room. I wish we had this time. I’d love to talk more about this. Later?
Well much before Jihaad and Al Qaida, the most feared terrorist group in the world was LTTE from Sri Lanka. Infact, they introduced suicide bombings to the world.And they have nothing to do with Islam. So, it’s wrong to say that most terrorists are connected to Islam. Yes, most terrorrists targeting the Western World are connected to Islam and that’s because of a whole lot of issues which we have discussed above.
wouldn’t it behoove us all, regardless of our belief system, to have an open mind about things that may help to illuminate why they do what they do?
No, because you are going to learn the religion with an assumption in your mind already, the assumption is that “they” are violent. If you were to approach this learning unequivocally then probably you would realize what the religion is actually about.
On a broader perspective !
As much as Ravi’s work should appeal to me it doesn’t (and don’t mind my choice of words here) because I have come to despise most contemporary writings on religion in India. They are either very didactic or they are written to appeal to the Western World, both of which does nothing to inform readers of the actual outlook of a particular religion in India. I therefore prefer to read contemporary Indian fiction authors and their works because they are much more informative about their religion and is cliose to true perspective. They talk about various aspects, like being a religious minority in India and other religious beliefs intermingled with common everyday knowledge.
After coming to the United States, I have realized how wonderfully secular India is. Yes we have communal tensions, yes we have riots and bombings etc. but overall India is an extremely tolerant nation. And I’ll tell you another funny bit about how the religious minority in India have less tolerance than Hindus or Mulsims. The Supreme Court of India made a ruling a few days back that a movie based on a Muslim Terrorist be allowed to release in Gujrat, our most volatile state right now and the people are flocking to the theaters to watch it while The Da Vinci Code was banned from screening in three states by the state governments because of Church pressure. Now who is more tolerant, Hindus, Muslims or Christians? Before coming to the United States it never even came to my mind about stereotyping Muslims. I have a host load of Muslim friends, infact one of my best friends is a Muslim. We hung out at their place, celebrated each of our festivals together and so on and so forth. The day his US Visa for his Masters Degree got rejected for the third time I realized what a huge injustice it is that an entire religion is being looked down upon because of the actions of a few people. Therefore, I don’t like it when people stereotype.
And that has been my point all along that a few people in this world and their actions doesn’t mean that the entire religion becomes their kind.
Another important thing is, don’t you see that the terrorism could be stopped very easily, but the US is not willing to do that. And it’s really simple. US has to stop supplying weapons to all the terrorism factions it has created in different parts of the world for balance of power and ask the other powers to do so. Then pray tell me how or where will the terrorist get their weapons from?
If you look at it it’s all very simple to overcome but politics would make us believe otherwise. The point of terrorism is that it comes to bite you back. Point inexample is India. India created and sponsored LTTE, the same LTTE which came back to assassinate their late Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. Similarly, the United States silently sponsored Taliban to wrest power from the Russians in Afghanistan and look what the Taliban did. It’s called the arms race and terrorism will never stop till the arms race is stopped. It has nothing to do with religion, religions have learnt to co-exist for ages together.
Amen!
Well much before Jihaad and Al Qaida, the most feared terrorist group in the world was LTTE from Sri Lanka.
I fail to see how this disproves my assertion that most terrorists are connected to Islam. More people are killed by Islamist terrorists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. They murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on 9/11 than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland, or more than the number of American criminals put to death in the last 65 years.
Given these verifiable figures (I have objective sources if you’d like), isn’t it right that we should all turn a critical eye toward the belief system that fuels this violence? Yes, any religion’s tenets can be distorted to justify violence, but this is just ridiculous. I refuse to believe that they’re simply hapless victims of American “imperial encroachment,” reacting in what way seems best to them. They’re killing innocent people left and right every day. With your cultural legacy, you of all people should realize the effectiveness of non-violent methods of social change.
Re: On a broader perspective !
This is very intriguing to me. I’ll admit, my cultural experiences are quite limited. I am well read, but, not well traveled. I concede that this is a major limitation. (Funny, I’ve wanted to visit India for some time now.) But, this should never stop a person from engaging others…nor does it negate fact.
Anyway…
Do you find that many of your countrymen share your views? And, do you think that all Christians in India have the same intolerance you assume Ravi does simply because he is a believer? How can you know this? Have you read any of his writings? (where you speaking of nonfiction as a whole or those written by Christians?) Aren’t you broad brushing? Oh, perhaps different rules apply for the Christian.
I applaud your friendships with those of other religions. Again, just as a lukewarm Christian (um, much of the US claims to be Christian. Are they?)does not wholeheartedly search the scriptures and live by them, the same for the non violent muslim community. So, my question is: when these terrorists cite muslim law and praise allah, should their scriptures be updated or amended? I mean, they are simply beheading people because Allah wills it, right? Deductively, either they are not reading the correct version of Koran, or, somewhere along the line SOMEONE needs to do some adjusting of their holy word. And, well, you have seen what happens when anyone touches their sacred Muhammad. Sheesh. So, either your muslim friends are skimming the Koran, or the Muslim leaders need to have a chat with the millions of bomb-strapped “fanatics” and let them know that what Muhammad said is “out of touch” and not what was intended. When is this going to happen? Me thinks this IS the norm…this IS what their scriptures say. I’ve read it. They really cannot be totally faulted in just reading what their god and prophet told them. Right? Curious.
About politics: here is some common ground. I totally agree that there is state sponsored terrorism, and much of the sponsorship might (MIGHT) come from those in the US. I am very skeptical of our leadership, do trust! There are terrible contradictions in this admin. Yes, so, I am one very disillusioned voter-turned-possible libertarian. These two parties are so false. I am now voting by my conscience with both eyes open.
I really appreciate your comments here. I hope you (both) know that I like discussing these things and am not slamming anyone. I think these are great topics we need to be talking about more with civility. So, thanks! :o)
Matt, let’s not get into facts and figures, I can produce plenty to prove that Non-Islamic militants kill more in a year than Islamic do.
They murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.
If you are counting Iraq, then it’s wrong because that’s a civil war and so is the Chechen revolution, unfortunately that’s sponsored by the United States.
Read:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm
Christian terrorists kill as many people in India as any other do. Does that mean that in India we should “turn a critical eye towards the belief system that fuels this violence?”
As much as I respect The Mahatma, India would never had achieved it’s independence if it had not been the Bhagat Singhs and the Subhash Chandra Boses. Non-Violence would do you good only to an extent. Again, I’m not justifying terrorism and killing of inncocent people, I’m just saying that choice of violence and non-violence is dependent on the situation.
Christian terrorists kill as many people in India as any other do.
You’re using a local situation to bolster a position in an discussion with a much wider scope. There are brutalities committed all the time all over the globe (Darfur comes to mind), but let’s compare apples to apples: On a global scale, how much violence is committed in the name of Islam compared to other religions? When you look at the matter from that perspective, I think you’ll find Islam to be far and away the most violent belief system.
Does that mean that in India we should “turn a critical eye towards the belief system that fuels this violence?”
Absolutely. I am confident that under close scrutiny the belief system proffered by the Bible will hold up in advocating peace and respect for human life and diginity. Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with the Qu’ran, I have considerably less confidence in it.
Re: On a broader perspective !
Do you find that many of your countrymen share your views?
Frankly speaking, in India people give two hoots about what Christians think because they are a minority and more than that they have too many other things to worry about like where to get the next meal from. In India whatever we are discussing here is a non-issue so forget sharing my views, noone even thinks about this stuff.
And, do you think that all Christians in India have the same intolerance you assume Ravi does simply because he is a believer?
No, all Christians don’t think the same way and proof of that is my friend Colleen and her family in Bombay. Their outlook is totally different, she even dated a Mulsim guy for 3 years.
How can you know this? Have you read any of his writings? (where you speaking of nonfiction as a whole or those written by Christians?)
I’m talking of Non-Fiction as a whole.
Aren’t you broad brushing? Oh, perhaps different rules apply for the Christian.
I might be broad brushing. As you said, we all have our biases.
In India, as much religion is part of our daily lives, the debate and religio-bias is minimal. We resort to killing 100s from either side once in a while during riots. People don’t raise an eyebrow if the other’s name ends with Mohammed. I couldn’t have a good haircut if I talked badly to Aslam, my barber. I wouldn’t get the best chicken which our neighbourhood butcher Salim would pick out for me every Sunday. My mom couldn’t have her blouse fit her bosom if she behaved badly with Ali, the tailor. That’s how ingrained Mulsims are in our society in India. They control major professions and you could only trust them to give a good product because they are champs at that. So I despise terrorists but don’t take that against Islam.
The last 2 years before I moved to the US, I worked with Muslims day in and day out and so I don’t think there is anything wrong with the religion. Fanaticism exists everywhere and the only thing that can eradicate that is education and awareness.
And the US can stop it all… stop offering support to Pakistan. But then it can’t do it, the balance of power would shift towards India. Everybody knows that Pakistan’s Madarsas are the breeding ground for these fanatics. I hold nothing against Pakistan but I do not like the breeding grounds.
You’re using a local situation to bolster a position in an discussion with a much wider scope.
That’s exactly my point, people in the US think that whatever is affecting them is the entire globe. It is not. And again I state if I try to add the terrorism figures up globally you will find that terrorism of other types would have left Islamic figures far back. My point is there is nothing wrong with the religion it’s just the current dynamics in world politics which makes a section of Muslims feel insecure. And most of them are linked to one or two organizations so how can you deduce from that the entire beleif syatem is wrong. Look Matt if the rest of the terrorists in the world got as much media publicity as Mulsims do this would be a non issue.
Absolutely. I am confident that under close scrutiny the belief system proffered by the Bible will hold up in advocating peace and respect for human life and diginity. Based on my (admittedly limited) experience with the Qu’ran, I have considerably less confidence in it.
Again, my deduction would be on the contrary because I would be going in with the assumption that Christianity propagates violence.
Re: On a broader perspective !
While I do not beleive that the US can stop all global terrorism (for then we would indeed be Satan, wouldn’t we, manipulating all terror?)I do believe as you do that much of what we see is because of present and past government involvement (funding, direct or indirect), apathy, or negligence, this is not merely a solution of funding.
Couple of things:
Do you agree that these terrorists operate out of a system of beliefs? A basic, albeit false and dangerous, belief system which they sincerely trust in, giving up their lives for? If then, how might an ideological issue be solved by removing weapons and funding? Granted, widespread attacks woudl be harder to come by, but, as we have seen, bombs can be made from nothing and these are individuals willing to die. How would this be insituted? Would a total removal of all things religious solve the problem? Or just a correcting of doctrine? Would the religious leaders tolerate such a thing? All I am saying is that taking guns away and money away never stopped crime…people will just use knives and bikini tops, as in current news. Where is the root?
I also would love to hear more about the Madarsas. “Everyone” except me knows this stuff, I think! :o) Im not being snide…I sincerely like learning new things. Please tell me more!
People in the US think that whatever is affecting them is the entire globe.
I don’t think this at all. I lived in France for five years. My best friends for years were British, French and expatriate Tunisian Muslim. I love this country and what it was founded upon, but I’ve always known that we are not the center of the world. I hope, at least, that I see things from a more global perspective. They seem to be murdering each other (Iraqi civilians) and other nationalities (Madrid and London bombings) well enough without having to target Americans outright. So this seems, to me, to be a global issue.
you will find that terrorism of other types would have left Islamic figures far back
Perhaps, but what I’ve specifically been discussing is religiously-fueled terrorism. Compared to the number of adherents to a particular religion, how much violence is committed in the name of that religion? How many terrorists murder every day in the name of Allah? How many in the name of Jesus? How many in the name of Hinduism? Compared to the number of Muslims in the world, the ratio of acts of terror to peaceful or even conciliatory acts is distressingly high.
I don’t think this at all.
My bad. Damn right, it is a global issue and needs to be checked, I never argued that point. All I’m saying is who decides what is the correct way …the middle ground… and how many years do we have to go through fearing when the man/woman/child/animal next to me in the train or plane is going to explode?
Perhaps, but what I’ve specifically been discussing is religiously-fueled terrorism.
I meant other religions when I said other types. I think you have to look at where some of these guys are coming from. Have you seen photographs of Afghanistan or Iraq. People have nothing left, they are in so much of despair that it’s easy for anyone to motivate them to dastardly acts by promise of a better future for their children.
Re: On a broader perspective !
US can’t, I agree.
Beliefs are strange creatures, they change with time, place and situation. And like I told Matt, imagine yourself being in the middle of Afghanistan…infact forget that. There is an award winning Indian movie called The Terrorist. Watch it and you will know why and how people get motivated to take up terrorism.It’s alot of forces working together and nothing absolute has even led to problem solution. Balance remains when their counteraacting forces and thats’w aht the approach has to be. How it can be achieved, I ahve no answers. I wish I did but then I don’t otherwise I would be in the UN discussing for hours together without any solution.
Read:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21654.pdf
Re: On a broader perspective !
Im sorry…I have heard of Madarsas. I read the article and, uh, having a difficult time understanding what part of Islamic religious texts you are not reading in regards to it being violent by nature. Perhaps when you speak of the law abiding, peaceful muslims you mean the cultural muslims, as in, those who pray on pretty rugs daily, but, lack the devotedness of their more violent counterparts? What is this schism within the muslim community?
About changing belief systems…yes, people change. Ideas morphe and shift. But the prinicples outlined in the perfect word do remain. Foolishness to most, I do not care. He is the Rock of Ages and He dosn’t change like the shifting shadows. He remains. Test that. You can ask Him to show you this. I’ll say an amen to that, actually. ;o) My son is awake now…great afternoon conversation!